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    The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

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    SillyMilly77

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    The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:13 am



    Well, I did it. I asked my mom this question. Finally. Have been walking around with this in my head for a while now.

    We were talking about me going into therapy. And my mother kept telling me how therapy wasn't going to make me any happier. She was saying things like "Do you really think you'll neeever ever ever feel bad again after therapy?"

    I tried explaining her that I'm not going into therapy to become happy. I'm going there to grow, to improve myself. (In fact, to stop myself from making myself feel miserable by thinking thoughts that make no sense, but somehow induce me with fear and sadness.) She then started claiming that I don't need therapy since I already know what I'm doing wrong, and therefore, can change it.

    I thought, this is it. This is the moment of truth, where I can ask THE question and get rid of the last bit of lingering doubt about her once and for all.

    For the sake of context, in order to explain to her why I was going to therapy to change and grow, and explain that therapy can be used as a great tool, I asked her the question.

    "Mom, in what way do you think you could change or grow?"

    You should have seen the look on her face! Really wish I had that on tape... At first, she seemed bewildered, then she avoided the question by answering: "That's not what I'm looking for. I'm already happy, so I don't need that." So, taking it a step further, I said: "So, people who want to grow are by definition unhappy?" And she said that's not what she said and I shouldn't twist her words around, that I was trying to make her look stupid, but she wasn't because she was so supportive when my dad kept studying and taking courses blablabla.

    Whenever I questioned her arguments, proving them invalid, her eyes were shifting, I could just see her looking for an answer, for a way to avoid having to face the obvious truth: your argument is invalid.

    So much is going on inside of me right now. I feel proud of myself for finally doing this. Also good to note, is that, even though this question caused the conversation to get a little heated, we managed to end it in a calm way, by concluding we both want what's best for me, and that we understand each other now. Would not have managed to do that a few years ago.

    But previously this evening, she was kind and charming (as usual when I haven't been around for a while, withdrawal seems to work really well with narcs!), and telling me how it was a good sign that emotionally, I felt like I was dancing through life, that my boyfriend might have something to do with it, that I might finally have found myself the right one... She was telling me the things I wanted to hear all my life.

    But now that I know what I know, that just lost its value. I can't take anything seriously anymore. Anything positive coming out of her mouth is just another manipulation technique, and I was so willing to take the chocolate, if you know what I mean...

    I realize I can never have a valuable discussion with my mother, because she has to be right, whatever it takes, but she's not always right... And a lot of times, these discussions will only cost me energy. I can't come home and tell about everything I've got on my mind anymore, because I can't trust her, I never know when she's going to use this information against me again. Just now, she seemed supportive about me going to therapy on the surface, but under the radar, she was manipulating me into thinking it's all just another useless endeavour, and that I am who I am and can't change, that I'll always be a failure. I'll miss it though. The warmth, the comfort, the feeling that I'm at least somewhat understood and supported... It hurts having to face the fact that it was all an illusion, a kind of bait used to reel me in and feed her the supply she craved for.

    I will have to work on a way to have less and less contact with her, until I'm barely speaking to her at all. But this means I have to leave my entire family behind, because everyone in here is still under her control. I already knew this family was disfunctional, and that it has a bad influence on me, but I never realized I might have to break all contact with the whole family. My relationship with my parents might have been difficult, but I still very much care for my brother and sister. Especially my sister. And I'm going to have to leave them behind too. And that hurts.

    At least I can start taking action now. I've got people helping me to get out of here. My boyfriend is currently my best sanctuary, and fortunately I can spend more and more time with him and his parents, especially now they know what kind of home I'm living in. Once in therapy, I might be able to spend most of my weekends there and, at least for a few months, I won't have to deal with this bullshit anymore. Hopefully, by the time I get out of therapy, I'll have found something of my own, so I won't have to go back into this shit...

    Anyway, just wanted to share this here, since I can imagine there's a lot more people having doubts about their narc really being a narc, and this is how it worked out for me. Hope it's useful!

    Birdy Lane

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by Birdy Lane on Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:51 pm

    How are you coping honey? I asked my narc husb this question last night. First reaction - total bewilderment. Then accusations, just like your mum. Assholes.
    The further I move away from him emotionally, the more I remember who I am, and my potential for love.
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    SillyMilly77

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:56 pm

    Well, my life has taken a turn for the worse. I've been in therapy for about 4 months now. Psychologically I'm making progress, but in every other area of my life I've hit rock bottom.

    It all started with my therapists wanting to meet my parents. So I invited them over for a chat. Being a typical narc, my mother sabotaged my therapist the minute he confronted her with her behaviour, by not letting him finish his questions, then blaming him for allowing her to interrupt him all the time and not taking the lead of the conversation, eventually decided that this was a useless conversation and got up, told me that she'd always love me no matter what, then when my therapist tried to convince her to sit back down because it would be a shame if it would end like this, she looked him in the face and said: "No, you can't handle me. You see, you people are of a different kind. And I fool everyone, always!" And then she walked out.

    My father is clearly on her side. During the conversation we started talking about how I'm afraid to stand up for myself at home, I got asked why that is. So I explained that I've been hit and pushed down the stairs in the past, that I got kicked out several times and what not. Then my father asked: "And what was the cause of all that?" Meaning I had done things to deserve that. When my mother decided to leave, he went right along.

    As soon as my parents were out, one of my therapists burst into tears out of compassion for me. "So now you see, this is what I have to deal with" I told them. From that moment on they finally started working very hard to help me get out of there.

    After this conversation I still felt the need to talk to my dad alone. So I texted him asking if we could go for a drink before I'd arrive at home for the weekend. At first he agreed, but then on friday morning (I always come home on friday evenings) he texted me to tell me I could come home and we'd talk about it there. I told him home was fine too, but insisted on talking to him alone. He said he thought that would be possible, and asked why, and I told him I'd explain when we were talking.

    But when I came home that afternoon, no one was there. I immediately knew that shit was gonna hit the fan, so I unpacked and repacked my bag while I could do it in peace. I then started calling some friends and was still on the phone with my ex (the boyfriend I talked about in my previous post) when my parents came home. I quickly hung up. My parents sat down and first started making fun of my therapists. They were suckers and not professional and what not, and then my parents asked what the meaning was of all that, and what I wanted to talk about. I clearly stated that I did not wish to talk in the presence of my mother. Then the accusations came. The fact that I wanted to talk to my dad alone had to mean I had things to say my mother wasn't supposed to hear, and that I was expecting my dad to keep secrets from his wife, and that I was planning on putting him up against my mother, and everyone was walking on eggshells because of me, "and look at how she's acting! Right back at square one! Looks like therapy didn't work after all..." and it went on and on and on. I decided that I didn't need any more of this bullshit, especially since I'm extra vulnerable because of being in the middle of a therapeutic process, so I got up to leave. My father again asked me what I wanted to talk about, and I told him that I didn't see any need for talking anymore, since things already became crystal clear for me.

    The only reason I wanted to talk to him, was to find out if he actually thought that my mothers behaviour is normal, or if he would agree with me that she might actually be very sick in her head. Since he goes along with her in the battle she makes this out to be, I believe I've got my answer.

    So I went to put my shoes and coat on, and heard my mother telling my dad that I should return the keys. So he came down the hall to talk to me some more. My mother was able to hear everything and still joined the conversation by yelling things here and there or laughing loudly from the background. My dad tried to tell me to let go of the past and move on, look to the future, instead of dwelling on 'that one slap I got back then'. He honestly believes this whole thing is about one slap in the face I once got in a fight. It's not even about all the shit I had to endure in the past, which is way more than just a slap of course. This is about what's happening RIGHT NOW! This is about me realizing that this is no way I wish to be treated and that my mother is no one I wish to be associated with, and me deciding to cut the cord because of that, based on her behaviour during and after the conversation with my therapists.

    Eventually I told my dad that we clearly weren't going to agree with each other and that I was done talking, that I had no idea what my plan was going to be and that he'd hear from me as soon as I figured that out. I took the suitcase I had packed and left.

    For two weekends I stayed with my ex and his parents, and then another two weekends at my uncles. I can stay with a friend of mine for another three weekends and still have to find something for after that. I've only got a few more weeks in therapy, so very soon I will need to stay somewhere fulltime and not just the weekends.

    On top of that my financial funds aren't enough to get by anymore. I'm on government support, so I called them up and explained my situation in hopes of being able to get help with this. Well that just made things worse. In order to get government support I should be actually staying at the address I'm registered at. If that's not the case then I can't get government support. And now that they know I'm not staying where I'm registered, they're gonna have to quit paying me. They said they're gonna give me some time to figure things out, so they won't quit paying me immediately, and they're gonna talk to someone legally to see if they can find a solution for this problem, but yeah, chances are I'm gonna be broke soon.

    So that's the situation for now... Just to give you a heads up...

    Shamanka

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    Join date : 2016-06-21

    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by Shamanka on Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:49 pm

    Wow. This is an amazing story of courage and tenacity. Thank you so much for sharing. I feel deeply moved by your story; saddened but inspired. I hope you are landing somewhere safe and that stability finds you soon. You deserve it! I love you
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    zebrage

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:52 pm

    Wow. Thank you for sharing this story. I admire you for facing up to them, and I think your being straighforward enough to tell them you've had enough, is very brave. It is a very moving story. I don't mean to sound dismissive of what you are going through, but I have learned a lot from reading your post.
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    SillyMilly77

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    Age : 29
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:51 am

    First of all, thanks for your replies! It means a lot to see that my story inspires people, so thanks for letting me know!

    Another heads up. A lot has happened. I ended up finding out there's something like a government support for homeless people, but when you get that, you're required to stay at a homeless shelter. Moving from friend to friend was no longer an option. For the sake of being able to get somewhere I chose to apply for the homeless support and went to one of the night shelters this town has. I was so scared! But it turns out I picked the best one. The people who manage it have been homeless themselves, so they know what it's like. The place was so clean! Appearantly they're the cleanest in the country. I got along with the people there too. Most people staying there had a regular job, and by their looks you couldn't tell they were homeless. Other people deliberately chose to stay homeless. They like to travel and don't feel like paying rent for a house they're going to leave vacant most of the time. There were also some alcoholics and hobo's though. Oh, I also ran into a good friend of mine on my first night there! Appearantly he ended up as a homeless as well. He actually slept outside for a while because he didn't even know shelters like these existed. I'm grateful I never had to go through such an experience.

    There was also a day shelter somewhere else, but that place was filled with the scum of the street. Not a good place to be unless you were chasing a career in drugs. I went there a few times, once to get a hold of a social worker and see if there was anything more I could do to improve my situation, unfortunately I was already doing everything that could be done and he couldn't help me. The other times I went there for their services. You could take a shower there, get a cup of soup and a slice of bread, get your clothes washed etc. I never stayed for long though. If I had money, I'd eat outside, if not, I went to the day shelter for a cup of soup and left again. My time during the day was mostly filled with appointments with social work and the government, and if I ever had some free time, I'd either go to the library or I'd hang with friends. I was also together with that friend of mine a lot. We'd support each other, take each other to places where we could spend the day warm and dry if we didn't have appointments or anything.

    After about two weeks of living like this, a friend from therapy told me she volunteered at a secondhand shop called Emmaus and offered to introduce me there so I could work there as well. That shop turned out to be the one right beneath the night shelter I was staying at, and they had a contract with that shelter. If I worked there full time, the shop would pay for my food and shelter, and I was allowed to come in earlier (right after work) and stay in during the day at the weekends, if I did a chore around the place. That certainly made my life a lot easier. And my friend applied for a job as one of the managers of the shelter.

    Eventually I got a call from social work. There's this project where both clients of social work and regular people live in one building and they're supposed to help one another. One of the people who applied for this project didn't meet the criteria, but I did, so they called me up to see if I was interested. Of course I was!

    As I'm typing this, I'm actually sitting on my couch in my place. It's a tiny place, but it's my own, and I don't have to share it with anyone. I'm almost finished decorating and I love how it turned out. I never got to decorate my own place, my mother was always in control of that... I also got a lot of help from the other people participating in the project, a.k.a. my neighbours Razz My neighbours are mostly students who are excited to organize all kinds of activities for the project, and other ex-homeless people who get help from social work. I got help painting and getting my furniture up here (I live on the 3rd floor), and in return I do favors like receiving their mail and stuff like that. We have a facebook page where we ask each other for help and respond to such requests. I love this project! It makes me feel useful and supported at the same time. Ooh, and my friend is now officially one of the managers of the shelter! I feel so happy for him!

    I also ended up dating one of the managers, but I'll explain that story in another topic.

    Yesterday, my uncle called. He asked me how I was doing and I told him where I live right now. I kept quiet about having my own place for a while towards my family, because I didn't want my parents to find out through them. I didn't want to risk them contacting me about it, offering me help, which would either lead to me refusing and them making a fuss about that, or me accepting and them blackmailing me over it. But now that the place is almost finished, I can safely let my family know my whereabouts and the story behind it. There's nothing my parents can do to me now. I didn't even have to tell my uncle about the shit I went through with my parents and not wanting to contact them, I guess he already heard my parents side of the story at my cousins wedding (which I didn't get to attend because of all this crap). But he said that I'm still part of the family and that he wanted to stay in touch, I wouldn't fall from the family like a loose branch from the tree, that's what he said. He also assured me that he wouldn't tell my parents yet, and that I should contact my brother and my sister whenever I feel ready. Note that: I should contact my brother and my sister, he didn't say anything about contacting my parents! He seems to understand, and it feels really nice to have a family member supporting me. I'll be having him over soon, and then I'll tell him what exactly took place at home all those years. I feel anxious about it. I mean, it's his sister we're talking about. I can imagine it's not easy to hear that your sister is mentally abusing her whole family. And I wonder how he will react...

    So as you can see, I'm doing a whole lot better than the last time I wrote. There's still a lot to tackle. I'm gonna go into individual therapy, and I don't think my relationship with that manager is very healthy, but again, more on that in another topic. But I have a home now, and after having this experience, I feel like I can handle anything that comes my way!
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    zebrage

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:19 pm

    Cool! I'm so glad you're doing better. Tread carefully with the uncle! Don't be too trusting! If you test his loyalties he may not come down entirely on your side. Don't give away too much information. It may be best not to tell him exactly what went on all those years. There might be no benefit to you to doing so, but a risk in terms of him telling your parents, perhaps with good intentions, but creating a bit of a unnecessary fuss anyway. All the rest of it sounds positive. I'm glad you're finding people who've been through crap too and are supportive.
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    SillyMilly77

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:57 am

    Since this topic has become a sort of blog appearantly, I feel like putting up another update. One big wall of text coming up!

    Like I mentioned before, I got into a relationship with one of the managers from the shelter I had been staying. Perhaps you've seen my other topic: How do I leave him? Here's the full story.

    To be honest, I immediately knew the situation wasn't a healthy one. When he first started flirting with me, I didn't even like him! I was disgusted, and went to his co-workers to say he was sexually harassing me. In the meantime I told him he made me feel uncomfortable with his behaviour, and he agreed to stop. I then heard from someone else that he and the co-worker I told my story to had issues with each other, and got the feeling that my complaint was going to be used as a pawn in a dirty game. I didn't want that to happen either, so when his boss came to me about the issue, I told her I did feel awkward when he flirted with me, but that the flirting had stopped since I told him it made me feel uncomfortable. She then told him that, in general, he had to keep his distance with the guests, and left it at that.

    For a few weeks everything was fine. We did have a nice kind of contact with each other, we made jokes and talked and everything, but he kept his distance as promised. However, the fact that he liked my jokes (usually playful insultments towards him), and the fact that he had nothing to say against them (which he usually had with others), gave me a kind of affirmation that was so addicting I couldn't stop anymore. And when I got sick and he showed me some care and concern, I started developing feelings for him. Of course he picked up on that, and consequently picked the flirting back up as well.

    I was still so confused about my feelings! How could I report sexual harassment one moment, and then fall for him the next? Add to that the fact that relationships between guests and managers, and therefore the fear of anyone finding out and having to suffer the consequences (like getting kicked out), and you've got the perfect situation in which it was easy to mess with my mind.

    Even though I told him I needed more time and space to figure out my feelings, he kept invading my personal space, touching my butt, kissing my neck, and eventually even french kissing me. Already tired of constantly fending off the men at the shelter, and not exactly feeling threatened by him, I allowed him to. We ended up actually dating.

    Eventually a woman who also stayed at the shelter saw our dynamics and asked questions about it. I denied dating him at first, but at some point caved and told her everything. She adviced me to stop this, that I wouldn't find the love and care I was looking for with him, but promised to keep her mouth shut about us.

    The next day, however, I got a text from him saying that his semi-boss (not his actual boss, someone below his boss but above him) called him to the office. According to him, the woman had been talking about us. I paniced. I was working at that moment (volunteering at a secondhand shop) and asked a friend/co-worker for advice. She told me to come clean. She told me to go to the manager of the store we were working at, tell her about the situation, and then go to the office and tell them my side of the story. At least they would get an honest picture of what was going on, instead of a weird story as a result of weird conclusions made by guests who only saw shady hints of what was going on. So I did. I went to the manager, and she offered to come with me for moral support while I told my story to my ex's semi-boss. I accepted. I told my story, and the semi-boss called in the boss, I told my story again, and a conversation with my ex and everyone else was arranged. I told him why I made this decision, that I paniced, asked a friend for advice and did what she told me to do, that I was sorry, that I did enjoy his attention, but that it all had to stop. It just wasn't good for me at this point.

    For a while we kept our distance. He did come to me to talk, but agreed that he should have kept his distance in the first place, and never approached me again. Awkward eye-contact was made every now and then, but nothing more.

    Eventually I got my own place. One of the guests of the shelter offered to help me paint for a small price and went with me to my house. In the evening we were invited by my neighbour to her housewarming party for a beer, we went there, drank a beer, and then went back to my place for a mini-afterparty before heading back to the shelter. We were sitting on the window sill when I saw my ex walking down the street. I said oud loud: "Hey who's that... is that... HIM? What's he doing here?" My window was open, so my ex heard me and hid behind the bushes. I kept calling him out, saying I had already seen him and asking why he didn't just come up to talk. He wouldn't listen. He kept hiding for about a half an hour before walking away, calling me a bitch and a slut who'd slept with everyone from the shelter.

    The next day he was working, and so I had to be alone with him for a moment when I needed to get my luggage from the luggage storage room. He said: "You're not doing so well, are you? Nope, you're not doing well at all!" To which I replied: "I think you're worse off yourself." "Oh, you think so, huh?" "Wanna talk about it? I'm a very good listener you know!" (I said this with a bit of a sarcastic tone, but actually being serious) "Nah, I'm not in the mood right now."

    A few days later he gestured from a distance that he wanted me to call, so I called. We made an appointment at my place to talk. He told me that the night he spied on me, he just happened to be in the neighbourhood and when he heard my voice, felt like he had to hide. He also said he thought he saw me kissing with the guy who helped me paint. I explained to him that nothing happened between me and that guy, and that I never did anything with anyone from the shelter, ever. He was happy to hear that. I also told him I never wanted to see that kind of jealous behavior again, after all we weren't even dating anymore! And even if we were, it wouldn't work out if he was that jealous. About 90% of my friends are male, the jealousy would drive him mad! Plus, I'm bisexual (although I always end up with men), so if I were to have coffee with a female friend, would he also burst out in rage? He got the point, then put his arms around me, appearantly thinking we were back together again. I told him once again I needed a bit more time to figure things out for myself before starting any relationship with anyone and got up. While I was ranting on about how scary it was for me to love someone, how it made me vulnerable and how I was so afraid to get hurt again, he kept coming close while telling me caring and supporting things, like how well he understood me, that I would get the time and space I needed, he could wait, and how he would take me the way I am. I bought into it, my fears melted away and I couldn't resist hugging him and holding him close for a while. And even though we said we'd give it time and take it slowly, we ended up dating again.

    The guy who was gonna help me paint bailed on me, and then another guy offered to paint and bailed as well, so, surprise, my ex appeared at my doorstep to help me paint, and I knew he wasn't gonna bail, and it was so convenient to not have to do all that work myself! It was tricky though, if he was spotted at my house by anyone from the shelter, either I'd lose my bed, or he'd lose his job, or both. We ended up leaving the shelter. For a while we stayed at his brothers place.

    In the meantime, more unhealthy traits began to come up. His jealousy for example. More and more frequently, he accused me of flirting with other guys, flirting with his brother, downright cheating on him. He also accused his brother of having touched me. Of course, his brother then kicked him out, which meant I had to go as well. From that moment on we stayed at my place. I had borrowed a fold-out bed where we could sleep on for the time being, and after about a week we had the place furnished and were almost done painting.

    As far as the relationship went on, more and more unhealthy traits revealed themselves. I started to recognize all the signs Richard mentioned about narcissists and anti-social people. Manipulative, gaslighting, controlling, reacting with rage when things wouldn't go his way. He said things like "You're so hooked on me, you can't live without me can you?" or "If you're ever going to screw this up, you're gonna be so sorry, you're gonna miss me so bad, you'll never find anyone like me ever again." He also tried to make me depend on him. By doing things around the house (and demanding that he did them and that I wouldn't ask anybody else). By supporting me financially. (I'm under financial surveillance and have little to spend. Then again, it would have been enough if it was just for me, but since he stayed with me all the time, I was paying groceries for the both of us, so yeah, the money was gone within 3 or 4 days, with another half a week left. I needed his money to get by because of that.) By telling me that I couldn't live without him. He was also with me ALL THE TIME, like litterally 24/7, and even when eventually I asked for more personal space, he always found an excuse to be with me again. And whenever he was with me, he was controlling me. And when he wasn't, he was controlling me even worse, since he had made me think with every step: 'If he caught me doing this, what would his reaction be?' and sometimes I decided not to do something out of fear of him popping up unexpectedly, catching me in the act, and burst out in rage, even though the things I wanted to do were completely normal and innocent (like having a chat with the neighbour from downstairs).

    I knew what he was doing. I knew that he was consciously manipulating me. "This is how they do it..." I thought at times, in Richards voice. "They make you depend on them so you can't leave... They lure you in and when you take the chocolate, they've got you..." Even when he started flirting with me when we were still at the shelter, I'd find myself thinking: "He's not respecting my boundaries... Even though I tell him to keep his distance and to give me more time and space, he knows I do have feelings for him and he pushes on until I cave..." I knew what he was doing. But I couldn't seem to get past that. Even though I knew what was happening, it was like I had completely forgotten what to do about it. I was trapped in his web already, sedated, poisoned, paralized. I knew I had to leave, but something inside me stopped me. I'm guessing my intuition already told me it was dangerous to leave him. I kept coming up with reasons to stay. I needed the money he promised me. I needed his help around the house. I couldn't bear the thought of him crying over me (which never was a problem for me in the past, if I wanted to dump a guy, I'd dump him, whether he cried or not), so I must have still loved him. I still liked the attention I was getting out of this. There was always something holding me back when I considered breaking up with him. Of course, I had good reason to consider this. The relationship had gone sour a long time ago, I just couldn't accept it yet, no matter how obviously unhealthy our relationship was.

    Last week, however, I got a really nasty wake up call. It started in therapy. I talked about my relationship with him, and the reactions were, in this order:

    Therapy-mate 1: "I think you're going to end up seriously damaged if you stay in this relationship. He doesn't sound too healthy a person to me. And he's so old too! Yugh!" (I'm 28, he's nearly 50.)

    Therapy-mate 2: "What I think makes him so dangerous, is that he seems to adapt to your wishes, so that you'll stay with him, but nothing REALLY changes. He adapts so you don't have an excuse to leave him, but you're still trapped." (This is actually the remark that opened my eyes and got me back to my senses).

    Therapist: "I think Milly already knows what needs to be done, don't you Milly? Yet, you can't seem to get yourself to it, can you? Is there anyone you can talk to about this, who can help you figure out what's holding you back and how to deal with it?"

    In the meantime I had already been discussing my relationship and everything that happened in it with my personal guide from the project I live in. She mainly helps me define my boundries and figure out how to defend them. She doesn't tell me what to do, she doesn't tell me he's bad for me and that I need to break up or anything, instead she helps me figure out how to deal with what is happening. So yeah, there is someone I can talk to. But at that moment, I had actually already decided that my relationship with him needed to end.

    That evening, I went over to his place. I had told him I was curious about his room and what that place was like, so we decided that I'd come over to his place that evening for a change and stay over. So I went there, having just made the decision that the relationship had to end somehow. I carefully, but in a clumsy way, brought up the subject. I told him that, at therapy, they thought he was bad for me. Of course he immediately started raging. Who did they think they were, they were the ones who where bad for me! I should stop going, they had a bad influence on me. I asserted myself that I was not going to stop going. The only reason they thought he was bad for me, was because I brought him up in the first place. They told me he was bad for me, because I didn't feel good about the relationship myself. He then asked me why that was. I said I felt trapped and suffocated. I said I feared his reaction. For example, if I had my male neighbour over for coffee, and he'd call by surprise and hear that, what would his reaction be? He immediately assumed that I had already had him over for coffee. "See, I knew you had a visitor last time I called you. Didn't I ask you about it? So you haven't been honest to me, have you?" I told him to let me finish. After defending myself against his accusation (no I didn't have him over, I have been honest, I'm just bringing this up as an example), I repeated the hypothetic situation of him calling while my neighbour was over. "Why the neighbour? Do you want to cheat on my with him? ARE YOU SAYING YOU'VE GOT AN AFFAIRE WITH HIM!?" He was already talking loud the whole time but now he was actually screaming at me, and he grabbed me by the chin and pinned me down on the couch.

    That was a wake-up call too. Within a matter of seconds, or even just one second, I thought the following:

    "Ooops, we'd better be careful with this guy..." (don't ask me why I'm thinking in 'we' mode at this point)

    "He's crossing the line. Definately a clear case of anti-social personality disorder."

    "We shouldn't let this happen, and we shouldn't let him intimidate us! He's trying to intimidate us in order to get us to obey to his orders, don't let him succeed! PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE!"

    "No! Punching him will only provoke him, he might actually punch back and you'll be in a nasty fight you know you can't win!"

    "Alright then, we'll push him away to make clear he can't just dominate us like this..."

    So I pushed him away from me, yelling "I'm breaking up with you!" He responded by screaming: "Are you serious! You're going to break my heart!? Are you sure!? Your life is over, missy!" And I yelled back: "Well look at how you're treating me! I don't have to take this shit, now do I?"

    That did the trick. He switched from raging to collapsing in tears. "Oh yeah... Oh yes dear you're right... I'm so sorry... Please don't leave! I won't do it again! Please stay with me! I promise that this will never ever happen again! I'll never do this to you again! Honestly! Please give me another chance..."

    I looked at him and saw that his crying was fake. It was an act to get me to stay. I wasn't fooled by it, but I knew that insisting on leaving meant risking another rage attack from him. If pity-playing wouldn't work, he might try intimidating again. And I didn't want to risk that. So I played along. I acted as if I was giving him another chance. I told him I was still furious at him, but I'd let him make up for it again. For the rest of the weekend I acted like everything was ok again between us, but my feelings for him were definetely over. I had seen enough of him by now to know that his feelings weren't genuine, so I didn't have to pity him anymore. I kinda turned into a psychopath myself towards him. I couldn't see him as a person anymore. I saw him as a parasite that needed to be removed, I just needed to wait for my appointment with the doctor.

    Knowing for sure that he was an anti-social (well... sure enough anyway), and knowing for sure I wanted to get rid of him, allowed me to act a little more freely, at least towards myself. No longer did I watch what I did or asked from him out of concern for his feelings. Sure, I had to force myself to hug and kiss him, even though now I was disgusted by him, but I didn't refrain from asking him to do things for me. I used to not ask things from him because I didn't want to make him do to much for me, he wasn't supposed to become my slave or anything, and he could only do so much for me as I did for him (which of course became less and less, since he wore me out and stuff...), but now that I knew he was drinking my milkshake, I didn't think twice about drinking a bit of his as well. So the past weekend, it has been like "Honey, could you get me a drink? Honey, could you help me with this? Honey, could you do that for me while I go to the store? It would save me so much time..."

    During the weekend, I also educated myself a bit more about anti-socials. What exactly is it that they're doing? Why are they doing it? What are their motives? What can I do with this information? How can I manipulate him? More importantly: how can I leave him in a safe way?

    The best advice I came across was: poison the well. He's feeding off of me, poison the well and he'll stop wanting to feed off of me. Yet, I knew this advice wouldn't work for me. If he had been my only problem in the past few years, sure, I might have had the strength to pull off that strategy. But having dealt with a narc mother, therapy, the homeless life and now this relationship all together, I was so worn out I couldn't wait for all this to end any longer! And I knew this strategy was going to take a very long time. Next to me, he had nothing. He quit his job at the shelter and had nothing else to do with his time, except for a facebook-game. I was all he had. Applying the strategy of poisoning the well wouldn't work as long as there was no other well to feed off of. For this to work I had to find him another source of anti-social supply, perhaps another woman he could victimize or whatever... Next to not having the energy to put into that kind of project, I didn't even want to think about letting him victimize another woman by my doing, so that wasn't an option. But without any other options, no matter how boring I became, no matter how long I'd apply the grey rock technique, he would still keep trying, because he had nothing else. Poisoning the well just wouldn't do.

    So I chose the quicker way, which is a bit more dangerous, yet feels better for me.

    This afternoon, I finally had my appointment with my personal guide. I told her that he had become physically agressive towards me and that I wanted to end the relationship, but didn't feel safe doing it alone. So we planned another appointment. At 5, I went to her office. My ex was also going to show up at my place at that time to have dinner together, so I told him to come to the office as well. In her presence, I broke up with him. I told him I didn't have any feelings for him anymore, that I was breaking up with him, and wanted no further contact. No messages, no texts, no e-mails, no phonecalls.

    He didn't agree of course. He couldn't believe that my feelings for him had disappeared so suddenly, something else was up. Was I seeing someone else? Yes I must be, and if he ever saw me with another guy he'd beat him to a pulp! Or my feelings were already fading and I had been lying about loving him and wanting to be with him. I told him I had indeed been lying. I was afraid of him hurting me if I'd be honest about wanting to leave him, could he blame me? He then said he wanted to come get his stuff at my place (some old clothes he wore during painting and two screw drivers). My personal guide said she'd come along, but he didn't want that, he said it wouldn't be neccessary. I said I didn't want to be alone with him, it simply wasn't going to happen. He asked me if I was scared of him, I said once again: can you blame me? He tried to convince me that I really didn't need to be afraid, he just wanted to talk. I told him I had made my decision and would stick with it, could he respect that? I didn't want to talk with him, that's a clear boundry I set, could he respect that? He blatantly said he couldn't respect it. I said he could get my stuff, together with my personal guide, but I wasn't coming along. I gave my keys to my personal guide and they went off.

    The thought that helped me stick with my decision was:

    This relationship is bad for me. It's draining me from my energy and it needs to stop. Nothing else matters.

    My personal guide came back and he went off. We discussed the matter a little more, then called the police, just to give them a heads up. This is what has happened last week/today, this is what I expect is going to happen (stalking, harassing, assault), I want to inform you so you know what's going on when I actually call. They told me that, based on the incident of grabbing me by the chin, I could already officially report him for abuse, but I figured that, if they were gonna persecute him, it would only provoke him, so I chose not to. The officer told me I could still change my mind any time and decide to report him anyway later on. Nice to know, might come in handy as a back up if he really won't leave me alone. And of course, as expected, he won't leave me alone.

    He's currently bombarding me with texts, messages and phonecalls. It started out with "You really broke my heart so very very hard, please talk to me..." and then went on to "Well that's nice, you played with my feelings and now that your house is finished you toss me aside!" (my flat isn't even finished, there are some details that still need to be done, but I don't need him for that) He left a voicemail saying "Must have been nice to have a boyfriend who payed for everything, and now that you've used me up you go on to someone else. So nice to play with mens feelings!" And a whole bunch of other stuff, clearly trying to provoke me.

    The thought that's helping me through this one is:

    I don't care what he thinks of me. He means nothing to me.

    It's actually true too! I don't think I could have gone through with the break up if I still felt something for him, but after the assault my feelings for him disappeared like snow before the sun. He really is nothing to me anymore, just a bad memory.

    Looking back at the whole experience, I do see my own part in it all. I know that I took the chocolate, even though I knew it was bait, not a gift. I know I secretely did use him to get things done in my house, and to pay for things. It was just so awfully convenient! I'm paying a steep price now though... I also think that the misery would probably have taken much longer if it wasn't for my experience with my parents. It's because of my history, and because of Richards info already in the back of my mind of course, that I could recognize the manipulation and the gaslighting he applied and came to see him for what he really is this quickly. Without all of that experience, I might have been in a miserable relationship for so much longer! I would have stayed with him, thinking he was genuine about changing, he just didn't know any better, but he wanted to learn, in time he'd treat me better, he just needs therapy blablablablabla, you know how it goes. At least I got to pull the plug while I'm still quite independant (well, depending on someone I trust at least, my personal guide Wink ), some people are already so deep in! Living together, maybe even married with children, and then having to pull the plug! I know lots of you know what that's like, since you've been through it or even still in the middle of it! I could have been in your shoes, but thanks to my experience with Richards video's, I'm not.

    I also learned a lot. I now know what an anti-social person is actually like. I know that from the four F's, my reaction used to be fawn and/or flight, now it's fight, since I wanted to punch him in the face after assaulting me. Anger really overruled my fear at that moment...

    What really blows my mind though, is how unusually quickly my feelings for him disappeared. From what I read about anti-socials, first of all it seems that it rarely happens that people (especially co-dependants) break up with their anti-social because they're so hooked, and it's usually the anti-social who dumps the victim, leaving the victim heart broken, barely able to move on. I mean, most of the articles I came across when googling "How to get rid of a psychopath/anti-social" were about moving on AFTER the psychopath dumped YOU, and getting rid of them meant removing them from your mind so you can move on with your life. It was SO HARD to find any information on what to do when you're actually still in the relationship and need to break up with them yourself! The only bit I found was to become boring to them (or even downright disgusting to them, I mean, one of the two articles on this actually recommended to stop bathing) and apply the no contact rule. When you're working with them, find another job. When they're family, keep your contact diminished and limited to the requirements of politeness. Romantic relationships weren't even mentioned, the advice was just to go no contact. Other than becoming boring or disgusting to them so they would leave you, there was nothing to be found on how to go about breaking up with them in a safe way. I was actually looking for a way to break up with him that would prevent him from going to these lengths of stalking, harassing and possibly future assault. But what is it that Richard says so often again? Oh yeah, if you want to get through this, you're gonna have to hurt a little.... Appearantly there's no easy way to get rid of a psychopath. Either you become boring/disgusting to them and wait for them to get sick of you and leave, or you deal with the stalking, harassing and assault. In any case, what I wanted to say before I strayed so far from my point, is that appearantly, even though they have been severely abused, even though they figured out that their lover is a psychopath incapable of genuinely loving them, most people still love their psychopath and have a hard time getting over them. Yet with me, my feelings for him vanished within seconds! I went from not being able to leave him because of my feelings for him, to being so repulsed by him I couldn't wait to break it off, WITHIN SECONDS!

    It could be that I'm mistaken, that it's really not all that unusual to lose your feelings for someone once you figure out they're a psychopath and that I'm perfectly normal (I just need to feel special ok? xD )

    It could be that, due to my history and experience with a severe lack of empathy and emotional neglect, I have become so fed up with being used and abused that I am more easily repulsed by people who do this to me.

    Perhaps it has even become a survival mechanism to be repulsed by people who drink my milkshake (at least as soon as I wake up to that fact), in order to be able to protect my milkshake from them.

    Perhaps I do still have feelings for him, I have just suppressed them so deeply now that I lost touch with them and am not aware of them anymore.

    Perhaps it's because he isn't completely gone just yet. He's bombarding me with messages and phonecalls, and even though I'm not responding to him or engaging in any kind of discussion or argument, I am compulsively making sure I save every message he sends, facebook, text, whatsapp or voicemail, in order to have something I can use against him. I am oh so dedicated to winning this battle. And since there's a battle, there's dynamics, and as long as there's still dynamics going on, there's nothing to grieve, because you can't grieve what isn't gone.

    I don't know what it is, but at the moment, I don't regret anything. I'm not sad about losing him, I'm not sad about whatever I invested in the relationship that I've lost, I do not feel the need to grieve. It's an interesting thing to discuss at therapy, I wonder what will come out of it...
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    zebrage

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:08 pm

    Wow. Amazing. Well done. I do hope this situation doesn't drag on. You are so amazingly self-aware and honest with yourself.
    I had a similar experience many years ago, though less intense. I met a guy while travelling and because I was alone, I enjoyed the company and wanted a place to stay, so I stayed at his place and enjoyed the meals out, etc, but he was sexually quite domineering and I didn't like it and I left town.
    If you're anything like me, I know exactly how feelings can change in an instant. I don't think you still have feelings for him but they're repressed. I think you will look back and wonder what you saw in him in the first place.
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    SillyMilly77

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:59 pm

    Haha, yep, exactly! He's not handsome. In fact, he's butt uggly, a typical "dirty old man". He's not smart. I'm a grammar nazi and he can't type one single sentence without a ton of mistakes. When I use remotely smart language he has a hard time understanding me. He's not into the things I'm into (though he can pretend to be). He has no job, nothing to do, no hobbies. He's poor, he needs financial surveillance. What the fuck has he got to offer me?

    I guess it really was just a combination of circumstances and events that made me fall for him. The circumstances have changed and I no longer need him for attention or anything. I'm in the position to get my own needs met now, so whatever it was he had to offer me no longer sufficed to keep me with him. Add to that the fact that he completely sucked me dry, and the assault, and I had every reason to leave him.

    I contacted the police, but there's nothing they can do at this point. They advice me to document everything, take notes of what is happening, sort of create my own file, but they can't get me a restraining order or do anything about him unless something serious happens.

    In the meantime the calls and messages keep coming in. He said if I won't talk to him I'd always have to look behind my back and watch out for him. He said he had contacted my mother and told her his story. He sent me a picture of the necklace I gave him, saying "This was very important to you right?" He's giving all he's got to provoke me and to get me to talk to him.
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:45 pm

    Hmmmmmm. Interesting to see all those tactics employed so overtly. Interesting for me, reading about them, I mean. A bit of a pain in the arse for you. One minute playing the victim, the next minute threatening. I guess you're not replying at all or picking up the calls at all? If you do have to talk, just remember to Grey Rock again and again. Don't give away any information, nothing sincere or honest, just really nothingy and dull. I hope he goes away soon. This is a lot to deal with right on top of all the shit with your family.
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:28 pm

    Yeah, it's been shit upon shit upon shit all my life... No I'm not answering. I figured, since the messages he sends aren't real threats according to the law, messages aren't gonna be enough to do something about it. He even went as far as taking pictures of himself in my house and posting them on my timeline on facebook, appearantly as a threat: I can get into your house, you're not safe. Even that isn't enough to do anything about him legally.

    He knows the law well enough to know what he can and cannot do, so he'll never do anything he can get any punishment from. It's no use collecting his messages. So I blocked him from facebook, and if he starts contacting me by phone again, I'll block his number as well. Chances are though, if I block him, he'll contact me physically since that will be the only way for him. I'd have a reason to call the police though.

    I'm also calling up as many friends as I can think of who can support me. There's a friend of mine who actually has PTSD due to being abused by his ex, so he knows what I'm dealing with, and he knows how this guy should be dealt with. He's gonna help me. There's a co-worker from the secondhand shop who my ex tried to set up against me. Unfortunately for my ex, my co-worker knows me too well to believe anything he says about me and he's on my side.

    I don't know what else to do. Except for changing the locks, which was the advice the police gave me. It could be he took those pictures when he was here with permission of course. I don't think he's calculating enough though to make pictures just so he could later use them as a threat. The other theory is that he used to take my keys when running for an errand, he could have made copies without me knowing. So changing the locks is on the planning.

    I hate this. I hate knowing that he can do anything and there's nothing I can do to stop him. I broke up with him so I could enjoy my freedom again, not to be controlled by fear of him...
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:46 pm

    That sounds the most feasible idea to me - that he had the keys copied. How are your DIY skills? You can change the lock yourself, don't pay a locksmith if you can help it. Just find one the same size and shape as the existing one so you don't have to cut into the wood, that would be the easiest way. If there are two locks, and you can take one off and take it to the shop to get another one the same, while locking the house using the other lock, then do that. (Happy to advise - my DIY skills are amazing!) Do you need your landlord's permission to do that though? Or is it OK to just do it and then tell them afterwards, and give them a copy of the new key?
    And yes, of course, it's crazy-making, demoralising and infuriating having to deal with this when you wanted to be free. But hold on. It's not true he can do anything. There are things you can do to stop him. He will go away.
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:09 pm

    You could even buy a sliding bolt and a padlock for the outside of the door, and a sliding bolt for the inside, if you promised to the landlord that you would fill and redecorate any screw holes in the door when you left, and they were happy with that. That way you wouldn't have to change the actual locks.
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:25 pm

    I can get help from my guide changing the lock, I still need to talk to her about it. Although not exactly changing the locks but just getting extra locks sounds nice as well, as well as the DIY part. Thanks a bunch for that advice!

    I also plan on seeing a lawyer. It turns out that there's a difference in what the police can do and what lawyers can do. I called to a number for legal advice, and they say that he's violating my civil rights, and a restraining order is definetely appliable. Especially since I have proof like screenshots of his messages and the incident on tape. Did I tell you about that? I always put my phone camera on record if ever I leave the house on foot. Yesterday I was on my way to therapy and guess who was there waiting for me? He said he just wanted to talk. He saw me filming and tried to take my phone, asking me why I was doing that and why I hurt him. I told him I had nothing to say to him and he spit in my face. Then he rode off on his bike, calling me names and telling me I wouldn't have a nice life anymore. It's all on my phone, so I have evidence. I definetely have a case against him.

    I've blocked him on all kinds of media where he could contact me, so I haven't heard from him since that incident, at least not digitally. That already gives me so much peace! At least when I'm home I can let it go and relax for a moment. When I was still obsessed with gathering screenshots of his messages for proof, I couldn't even get myself to watch a movie. I HAD to find a solution for this. At least since I blocked them, I can enjoy my free time at home again. I'm still kinda jumpy on the streets, and I know I will be for a while, even when I get a restraining order. I mean, it's possible that the restraining order only provokes him even more, it's possible that a restraining order won't stop him from finding me on the street. BUT when he doesn find me on the street and I have a restraining order, he will get a nice fine to pay, and he's not exactly in a position where he can afford a lot of fines. Still, he could decide to just not care and harass me anyway, no matter what the cost.

    I think I'll also buy a can of marker spray. It's a less painful alternative for pepperspray. Where with pepperspray you burn his eyes, with the risk of ending up in the spicy fog yourself, marker spray just makes him blue for a couple of days. It's designed so that the police can easily recognize him when you report him after the fact. And you don't have a chance of hurting yourself with it! Pretty cool huh?
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:59 pm

    He really doesn't sound very nice.
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:33 pm

    Oh, you think so? I thought he'd make perfect boyfriend material, lol!

    The irony is that I really did think this for a while... :/
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:52 pm

    Oh by the way, I have an appointment with a lawyer by now. He's going to discuss this issue with his co-worker to see whose expertise this actually is, but they're definetely gonna help me. They've seen cases like this before and they know how serious this can get. He told me to write down exactly what happened, when it happened, it would come in handy. I still need to do that. On thursday I have an appointment with them.

    I also got mail from him. Now that I blocked him everywhere he's trying other methods. He still calls me with a private number, he still rings my doorbell (or at least I think he does, since I don't answer either of them, but nobody else calls me with a private number and everybody else calls before coming by, so it really must be him), and now I found something in my mailbox.

    When we were still an item, I showed him something I learned at therapy. As an example, I wrote down an event, my feelings about it, thoughts about it, behaviour towards it, the consequence of my behaviour, and the healthy view upon it all. He put that paper in his pocket back then and told me he'd have a look at it whenever he was feeling jealous and suspicious again. Now he threw it in my mailbox, together with a picture of me he always carried around in his wallet.

    My neighbour also told me that he saw him circling around our flat for the past three days. This guy truely won't give it a rest!

    Is it thursday yet? I really want to get this issue over and done with...
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:57 pm

    I know what you mean. I went through another similar thing but less intense, a few years ago with someone from work. When I met him, I could see he liked me but I thought "there's no risk of me falling for him, I just don't fancy him." He had a lot of anger towards women from the past, which should have been a red flag. He also lied to acquaintances that we were married when we weren't even dating. His persistence and seeming kindness won me over and we were a couple for a few months. He didn't want me to see my friends, and would rant in the middle of the night about what was wrong with me and my life, while I was exhausted and too tired to fight back. In the end I dumped him and he sort of stalked me for a bit - calling my number and hanging up, turning up crying on my doorstep. Why did I give in and accept him as a partner? Low self-esteem. A people-pleaser's willingness to see the best in people. Overgiving. Being an absolute sucker for someone listening to me. My Inner Critic says I'm an absolute idiot for going out with him, but I guess I've got to forgive myself.
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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:45 pm

    Yeah, it's exactly that. Wanting to see the best in people and being overgiving. Due to our low self-esteem, maybe we think we owe it to them or something.

    I also think types like that just wear us out. We get tired of fighting and so, we give up. We choose the way of least resistence, we choose to convince ourselves that we actually like the guy so we won't have to resist. Our brain is good at that. It's kinda like stockholm syndrome.

    I mean, even as co-dependents, we have our standards, right? Our boundaries might be distorted but we do have them. And when someone tries to cross our boundaries, we too defend those boundaries, be it in a distorted way, be it in a subtle "I'd rather you not..." way, but we defend ourselves. Healthy people respect our boundaries. I mean, be honest, even as a co-dependent, did you not get to refuse a couple of guys in the past? I know I did. Hell, I was a real heartbreaker at times! Some guys accepted with dignity and just left me alone, some guys got upset first, maybe even tried to get me to give them a chance, but even those guys left me alone after the fact. I felt bad for them, being a co-dependent after all, but I guess I could go through with the rejection because they accepted so easily. And also because I didn't have to see them upset I guess.

    With my ex, he got to me because I had to see every single day how he was "suffering". I couldn't stand it! Even though I wasn't attracted to him, I felt deeply connected to him and didn't want him to feel bad. He knew, of course, and he knew exactly what to do to provoke me.

    It's not our fault, zebrage! We didn't choose for this to happen to us! In one of the articles I read about psychopathy, I read the perfect quote for this: we didn't consciously choose to step into a relationship with a psychopath. We were attacked. It's exactly that: we were attacked! So don't beat yourself up over accepting him as a partner, he MADE you do that!

    But you gotta do the work on yourself. Even I have to admit that I took the chocolate. It sure was convenient to have a man around the house to fix the chores I couldn't do myself. It sure was convenient to have a boyfriend who payed a lot of stuff for me so I could get by. It sure was nice to convince myself of finally having found that special someone I always longed for. I mean, that's the stuff I consciously did. Then there's of course the circumstances that triggered feelings of emotional neglect and of potentially being abused, which made me prone to being easily manipulated.

    Even now I find myself thinking: what if I give in and just talk to him one more time? Maybe I can give him the peace he needs, maybe we can solve things in a nice and peaceful way... *pukes rainbows*

    And that's also a thing! I don't know if this applies to all co-dependants, but I think it does. I always want things to go peacefully. I always want everybody to be happy. And in the case of my ex, accepting him as a partner and convincing myself of loving him seemed more peaceful than having to reject him, so obviously I chose that option.

    Anyways, even though it's not our fault and we didn't exactly choose for this to happen, we still have to become conscious of what exactly it is that we're doing that attracts these parasites and enables them to drink our milkshake. We have to face what we're doing so we can eventually stop doing it. And I hope, zebrage, that you will get the same insights I've had about myself, so that you can forgive yourself and move on.
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    SillyMilly77

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:17 pm

    Another update.

    Yesterday one of the neighbourhood cops was over here to talk about the whole stalking issue and offered to have a chat with my ex, in which he will make clear that the harassment has to stop. I didn't give him the green light just yet, since I don't know what the effect will be. It might work, maybe if the police get involved it will scare him enough to make him stop. It might also just be fuel to the fire and make him do even worse things to me. So I told him I'd give it some thought and discuss it with my lawyer.

    Just now I've been at my lawyers office, and he says that, for the record, it's important that the policeman does have that chat with my ex. If he continues the harassment afterwards, at least we can show to the court that we've done everything we can to make him stop and that it didn't work, so legal measures need to be taken. So I'm gonna give him the green light as soon as I can.

    However, since yesterday morning, I haven't heard from him. No missed call from a private number this morning. I've been gone all day up til now, so I wouldn't know if he rang the bell or if he's been around at all, but so far, no sign of him. To me, this is not a good sign. I wish I could believe that he has given up on me, but the general stalker doesn't give up that easily right? At best, he's just taking a break. It's a tactic to avoid legal persecution. If he quits now, I got nothing to prove that I need a restriction order. Heck, that officer might decide he doesn't need to chat with him anymore since the harassment has stopped. If he quits now, there's nothing I can do against him, only to have him back at my doorstep months later, maybe even years later. It might have stopped for now, but it isn't over by far!

    In other news, I'm meeting up with my uncle and aunt in an hour. I'm quite excited about it, but also anxious. By the sound of my uncle on the phone, he seems to know about what's going on between me and my parents, and he seems to understand that I need time to figure things out concerning contacting my brother and sister, contacting my parents (or not), and all the stuff that comes with that. I'm guessing he wants to know more about my side of the story though. I'm also guessing that he saw my ex's posts on my timeline and wants to know more about that. I'm happy to tell him, but I'm also afraid that it might worry him. I still think honesty and transparency is the way to go though. In the case of my ex, I'm sure he'll do nothing but support me, if only with words. In the case of my parents, he might have questions, but I have answers, and I don't take him for someone who will judge me or my actions. He probably won't judge his sister either, but boy, am I curious about his opinion about the whole thing!

    Well I'd better run. I might post another update tonight about the meet up with my uncle and aunt. Cya!
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    zebrage

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:31 pm

    How's it going Milly? What's happening?
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    SillyMilly77

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:43 am

    Sorry to keep you waiting so long. I was writing this whole story which was way too long anyway, then got distracted and never got to return to it.

    Anyway, the meet up with my uncle was very pleasant. My aunt and cousin were there too. We talked about a lot of things, let's see... I think I underestimated how well my uncle knows my mother. Kinda makes sense though, since my mother is his sister... And he also knows my dad well enough. So he told me how they were all at my cousins wedding a couple of months ago, and since I wasn't there, they were all wondering where I was. Of course, my parents had to tell them about the "so called family therapy session" and admit that they didn't have a clue where I was at the time, so my uncle felt the urge to contact me himself. He said that, knowing how my mother always plans these things out, and how she reacts when things don't exactly go according to plan, the fight was inevitable. But he said it was very courageous of me to stand up for myself like I did, saying I wasn't taking any of that anymore. He also said that maybe I had to go through this in order to learn to take care of myself, like, I wouldn't learn until I lost the people I was always falling back on. And then he said something about my father that touched me on a sore spot. He said that my father had to take my mothers side, because without my father, my mother isn't as strong as she likes to make herself out to be, whereas I can get by just fine without him. He chose the side of the one who needed him the most. He concluded that part of the conversation by saying that the fight I have with my parents stands apart from the fact that they still love me (I was already wondering when he'd pull out that card Razz ) And then he got on with telling me that my brother and sister both don't feel allowed to initiate contact with me. It's not like my mother is literally telling them not to, but they're sort of going through a loyalty crisis right now. In other words, it's up to me to initiate the contact if I want to hear from them again.

    I also told him about my stalker ex, and how I always manage to attract the wrong types and how I was figuring out how to stop doing that. My uncle told me that maybe it's not me. There are women out there who are perfectly fine and then get attacked by a type like him. So it's probably him, not me. (Update about my stalker ex later on Wink )

    I get what he's doing. He's restoring peace and tries to guide me back to the family. And even though he figured out what happened all by himself, without me even beginning to tell him anything, which is already surprising, I still think he's missing a few key points. Of course, I can't exactly expect him to be a second Spartan Lifecoach, especially since he comes from the same family that made my mother as sick as she is, which probably means that he thinks a lot of unhealthy things are perfectly normal. Or maybe he's just trying to euphemize the whole situation. I don't know. In any case, he clearly still thinks my mother is capable of loving, he probably just assumes that she's just like everybody else. Of course, if you've never heard of NPD and don't know what signs to look for, that's what you do. You just assume that a mother loves her child and just wants what's best for her child. That's probably why he pulled the 'they still love you' card. And then there's the thing about my father, who chose the side of the one who needed him the most. Well isn't that just very co-dependent of him? I mean, appearantly, he had to choose between meeting my needs, or meeting his wifes needs. And my needs always lose, because the needs of a narc go before anybody elses needs, always. And his own needs aren't even an option for him! I mean, what about his need to maintain a relationship with his daughter, huh? What about his need to stay neutral and not take any side? What about his need to just hear me out, no matter what I had to say? No, being a co-dependent, my father doesn't have needs, and I think my mother brainwashed him, because everything she makes me out to be is just too rediculous to take seriously if you're not under her spell. Speaking of which, I wonder how badly my siblings are brainwashed... I mean, clearly my uncle wants me to contact them, but that's easier said than done... I mean, my brother is already completely sucked dry from his own will, he's the perfect tool for my mother to try and get to me. And my sister is literally still dependent on them, since she's only 16 and living in the same house. She still needs her parents to be fed and sheltered. She can't disobey them without getting seriously blackmailed. Even though my mother treats her as the golden child, that treatment can stop instantly the minute she becomes too independent or in other words, a threat to my mother. Either that, or my mother has brainwashed her as well, to the point where my sister doesn't even feel like she has the need to maintain contact with me. What also bothers me in both the case of my brother and my sister, is that my mother has such a big influence on my brother and sister, that when I let my brother and sister back into my life, I also let her influence on them into my life, if you know what I mean. What I fear is, once the contact is made, the war between my mother and me will still be waged, but through them. I mean, it will only be a matter of time before they say "Mom said..." and I go defending myself to them. Of course, it's up to me to not grab the bait and just say "Oh, did she now?" or something. Maybe I could ask them what they think themselves. But to do that, I need to be completely autonomous, confident and resourceful in my own space. Currently I'm still very unstable, I've still got a lot of recovering to do, so I don't think I'm up for that yet.

    Now then, about my stalking ex. After my last post, the stalking went on. I had a false order from a restaurant. I explained the situation and the delivery guy was very understanding. I later got a phonecall from the restaurant, offering to see if they could track the IP address of the order that was placed. Never heard back from them about that though... I also had some private calls. I actually decided to answer them, but he just hangs up right away. Sometimes he hangs up even before I get to answer the call. I've also had the doorbell ring and I'd answer the intercom, but there wouldn't be an answer. Oh, and the most fun was when I was using chromecast and it kept casting other youtube videos. The only way you can cast with your device is when you're on the same wifi network as the chromecast is. And since he's been connected to my wifi when we were still together, I'm guessing he was messing around with my chromecast on his phone while he was in the neighbourhood. I changed my wifi name and password and it stopped. The last private phonecall I had was on tuesday evening. And then I had a phonecall from the police, saying that they went over to talk to him on tuesday evening, right about the time I got that last phonecall. Of course he denied harassing me and he told them he'd leave me alone. I haven't heard from him since then. What does bother me is that, they asked me if I heard anything from him, and I told them I had a private call and when I answered, they hung up on me, and their reaction was "Oh, but that doesn't neccessarily have to be your ex, right?" Yeah, no, you're right, I've got like 20 other people calling me anonymously and then hanging up on me. I mean who else could it be!? What the F... Anyway, he seems to be leaving me alone, so that's good. For now at least. I mean you never know, knowing him, he could turn up again in a few months...

    Oh and I'm finally losing it. My personal guide is on a holiday and I still don't know who's replacing her in those two weeks, so there's no one telling me to do things. The plan was to pick up my volunteering at the thrift shop again, but in total I worked there for 4 days, called in sick twice, and then just stopped showing up, not even bothering to call. I can't get myself to do anything I don't feel like doing. My house is a mess, usually I can't stand the mess but I just can't be bothered to clean that shit up! The reason I haven't been going to the thrift shop is because my circadian rhythm is a mess! I also can't stop doing things that I do feel like doing, think of eating junk food and watching TV shows all night. Even if I do try to go to bed in time, I just won't fall asleep until the sun rises. And of course, by the time I'm asleep, I can't get myself to get out of bed for work anymore. A few months ago I would still go work for the mere fact that people were counting on me, but at this point I don't even care about that anymore! It's like the tiny bit of discipline I used to have has vanished completely.

    I kinda figure I'm balancing myself out. The only reason I ever functioned in any way was because I HAD TO. It was a surviving mechanism, if I didn't function like people wanted me to, I'd lose things that were essential for my survival, like money or shelter. I started working at the thrift shop because it kept me off the streets while I was staying at the night shelter. My work was also my shelter at daytime. And since I have vampires disease, which means I basically burn from the inside when I'm in the sun for too long, shelter at daytime is crucial for my survival. It's not exactly like I had to work my ass off, but I still had to do more than I could handle, just so I didn't have to be out in the sun at daytime. (Or in the same building with the scum of the street.) And even before that, I had to live up to certain expectations or there'd be dire consequences.

    But now I don't have to anymore. My mother used to command me to do the dishes, and I'd just do them to prevent her from getting angry. Now, nothing happens when I don't do the dishes. They just stay dirty. So I don't do them. It's simply not neccessary. Oh, I want to use a clean spoon? I'll just wash off that one spoon. Or use a fork instead even (really, eating pudding with a fork is surprisingly easy!). Dinnertime? I'll order a pizza and eat from the box, that way I won't need a plate, or even cutlery! Laundry? Nah, I'll just wear my bathrobe for another day. I don't need to go out anyway. Volunteering at the thrift shop? After an awful night like that? I really can't expect myself to do that now. What's the use? It's not like I'll lose anything important if I don't go...

    Of course, when you think about it, it kinda makes sense. Where I used to do things I didn't like in order to prevent something from happening, or in order not to lose something, I now only have to do things I don't like to do in order to gain something, or in order to get something to happen. And appearantly most of the time, it's not even worth that much to me. Maybe it's because gaining something isn't as motivating to me as losing something. Or maybe it's simply because I need to recover from spending energy I didn't have for so long. I mean after all, not losing something you need isn't as rewarding as gaining something awesome. And to be able to sit on my lazy ass all day, in my own home, doing nothing but watch TV shows all day and not having any bad consequences apart from a messy home, that's probably as awesome as it gets right now.

    Maybe I shouldn't worry too much about not doing too much I don't want to do. Maybe it's about time I take some time off. Maybe, after working so hard for so little, I can see this lazy period as my reward for all of that. Maybe I need to listen to my own system and loosen up, completely let myself go, until my system tells me that it got enough energy to get bored again, and that it's time to do something again.

    It's gonna take some getting used to doing things with an entirely different motive than before, and I should give myself some time for that. It's still so weird... Suddenly I can get my own needs met, I don't need anyone to do that for me, so I'm the one who gets to choose which needs are going to be met exactly. And being a co-dependent, I don't even know my own needs that well, so I guess it's only natural that I'm currently going for immediate indulgence. Right?
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    zebrage

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by zebrage on Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:16 pm

    Right. Don't be giving yourself a hard time. Self-compassion is key. Sounds plausible to me you need a time-out from the strictness of your upbringing, so yeah! wash the same spoon over and over! eat pizza from the box. As long as that doesn't become a new crutch, a new normal, as long as it doesn't deteriorate your self-esteem. As long as, at some point, you will figure a way forward that involves more than eating junk food and watching daytime TV. But with what you've just been through, you can take a little time. It's only been, what, a few months since all this kicked off. Self-compassion is key!
    What your uncle says might not be true about your Dad, and of course, your Uncle also has an agenda, albeit not as mean as your Mum's. I think it would be sensible to take a pause, not react, and wait a while before initiating any contact or doing anything. You don't wanna get sucked back in after all you've been through, and you might be worth more to your brother and sister on the outside than on the inside. Your uncle saying they don't feel allowed to contact you - is that a bit guilt-trippy? like "it's up to you to initiate contact and you want to do that, right? cos you're a good little codependent?" Interestingly, regarding your brother and sister, your post said lots about your fears, your concerns, possible strategies etc, but you didn't say whether having them in your life is something you actually want.
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    SillyMilly77

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    Re: The One Question You Need To Determine If A Narcissist Is A Narcissist.

    Post by SillyMilly77 on Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:18 pm

    Indeed, I didn't say I want them in my life, but I do. I really really do. I've always had nice conversations with my brother about the meaning of life and what not. When I got diagnosed with ADD, he was the only one who was actually interested in hearing about it, and open to consider that he might have ADD himself. And my sister is very aware that she is the golden child, and she's always found ways to use that in my advantage. It was the little things really, like, she'd ask me what I want for dinner so she could ask mom, because she knew the answer would be yes if she asked for certain. And we just overall had an amazing sisterly bond. I'm not willing to give that up, even if I broke contact with my parents. But I am going to need some time to recover from everything that has happened, yes...

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