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    Is begging a Fawn-Response?

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    Tebasile

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    Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:54 pm

    Hi group,

    I have CPTSD and I have noticed in my previous relationships with narcs, after they dump me, that I often end up resorting to begging them to stay/return.

    I was wondering what group of responses that would fall into? Fight, Flight, Freeze or Fawn? I'm guessing it's a fawn response, but it could also be a Fight response since it's often combined - in my case - with serious "nagging", like continually for years begging a narc to return to me. To nag is to totally disrespect the boundary of my narc, so it seems aggressive, and therefore I would guess it is a Fight response, although passive aggressive in nature. But begging seems very Fawn like.

    I think it would be good if I could figure out what category my behavior falls under so that I could work to change it, reduce the intensity.

    Ideas?

    Lisa
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    BraveRuth

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by BraveRuth on Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:48 pm

    Hi Lisa,

    I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like a fawn-like response to me as well.  I have a pretty solid flight/fawn trauma response and I have done this same thing before in my earlier narc relationships (I've had a few and I learned after the first couple that begging just made things worse, so I stopped).  I still had the impulse to beg, though..usually directly followed by the impulse to tear them to shreds.  So maybe I have some fight in there too...

    Not sure if this helps, but I certainly understand and relate!

    Bethany
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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:08 pm

    Hey thanks Bethany,

    Yes it helps. It confirms what I was suspecting. I can also totally relate to the urge to attack them, and then to beg, and then want to attack, beg and so on....it's been such a nightmare. I'm so grateful that this forum exists and the youtube videos for sure....the only way I could stay remotely sane and have a chance not to heal and have this NEVER happen to me again....Phew....
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    BraveRuth

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by BraveRuth on Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:26 am

    I am very grateful as well! I don't even know where I'd be without the YouTube videos!

    It has also been helpful to remember that those reactions were all totally normal. "Normal reactions to abnormal behavior" as they say. Sometimes I look back at my behavior and think "holy cow, was I crazy??" But no...those fight/flight/freeze/fawn reactions were all normal responses to abnormal behavior. After all, we don't act that way with healthy people...just with the crazy narcissists!

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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:05 pm

    So well said. Yes, it's been really healing for me to finally get the confirmation I had been looking for during my entire life. That I was reacting to "something". My depression, the anxiety, the hunt for dangerous men....all of that was and is a reaction to my childhood abuse.

    The other day a narc (I'm dating....so I still run into them all the time, but now I leave within about a week of noticing how evil they are...)

    He said "you are sensitve..." and I said "I don't identify as senstive, but as traumatised..."

    Then I blocked him... I'm learning...
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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Wed Aug 10, 2016 5:40 pm

    I just realised that was a bad description. But he used sensitive to push me down. And that is what my mum did too. Whenever my world view wasn't totally submissive and fawning, I would be punished by being called sensitive, or over-sensitive. They if I would complain about that I'd of course be sensitive...it's a perfect double bind word. And ultimately they sometimes even say that being sensitive is a positive thing. Except they used it to belittle and minimize my postition in the first place. It's so enraging...but I have these amazing questions now that help me determine who's a narc/sociopath...

    Also, I realized that narcs are like Replicants in that movie Blade Runner....
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    BraveRuth

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by BraveRuth on Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:20 pm

    Hi Lisa,

    I definitely understand what you meant. Once we have been through certain experiences, we know the difference between the comments meant to encourage and the ones meant to demean or dismiss. I know when I hear "wow, you're so sensitive" from a guy who is dismissing the fact that what he just said or did wasn't 'okay' is a form of gaslighting. However, I have a friend who actually admires the fact that I'm sensitive because he thinks it makes me strong. He knows what I've been through and sometimes he says "I know you're sensitive" and then I say, "yeah, but don't tell anyone..I have a reputation to uphold!" And it's all in good fun. It's good to know the difference and run from the people who would use a comment like that as a put down! I personally think that maintaining sensitivity despite having been abused is a remarkably strong and admirable trait. Smile
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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:16 pm

    Exactly! So spot on!!! There is totally no doubt to me anymore now when I hear words and feel like I'm being punched in the stomach....it's not OK. It's TOTALLY gasslighting!!! I didn't even think about that, but you're so right!!!

    And soooo funny that your response is to say "don't tell anyone, I have a reputation to uphold!!!!" Hahahah! That's awesome! I'm going to have to steal your line now!!! The whole sensitive thing is a favorite word among narcs I'm sure. It's such an easy way for them to win...usually....

    And I also agree that it's incredible to be able to have normal sensibility. I came to understand that it's not that I'm over sensitive, but that my mum and sister are under-sensitive, as in totally non empathetic. And objectively speaking being sensitive is a good thing. But it is a word that has been kidnapped by the narcs....

    I feel so sad that I've lost so much of my life to suffering, instead of enjoying life, intimacy and friendships...I am mourning that so much and I still don't really know how to channel my rage and anger in a healthy way. I just end up feeling so crushed and depressed by all of this. The life that I'm left with is soooooooo far away from where I wanted to be. And the last narc took everything from me. Or I should say, my co-depencancy participated willingly and allowed it to happen. I refused to accept reality. And I'm still taking the consequenced of my denial....It's so crushing....It's been such a rude awakening....
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    BraveRuth

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by BraveRuth on Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:12 pm

    I can't even begin to tell you how much I relate to everything you just wrote...

    The term "sensitive" certainly was hijacked by narcs...as were most other terms since they like to abuse and mutilate language in order to use it as a weapon. When I was a little girl, my brother and father would make fun of me and laugh at me until I cried, then tell me I was over sensitive or just continue to humiliate me by saying things like "awww, you're so cute when you're upset...". Then if I got angry I'd get punished and called "over sensitive." It was a constant lose-lose scenario and no matter what I did, it ended with me being laughed at, made fun of, ignored, or patronized. It was a horrid existence that I had no option but to internalize by negating my own emotional experiences. Which, as you're aware, just spirals into more and more problems as an adult.

    I understand not being where you want to be in life. I'm not where I always imagined I'd be either. But I really like the phrase "you only know when you know." I lived in such a state of unknowing for so long. But now we know..and we can make better choices. Smile

    Have you heard of or read Pete Walker's book on CPTSD? I'm going through it now and it's really eye-opening!
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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:37 pm

    I’m so terribly sorry that happened to you!!! That is such horrible abuse. And to think of a small child being exposed to this. The strength in you is incredible. I really admire that you were able to stay sane and stay a good person. It’s so horrible that you were in a situation where you were damned if you did and damned if you didn’t. I’m very glad you survived that crazymaking cruelty.

    Did you have any adult in your childhood that was non toxic that helped you survive, or do you think you are simply innately healthy and able to handle so much abuse without becoming personality disordered yourself?

    For me, as a child, I would scream and cry when I was beaten. But mostly it was "only" psychological abuse. And I just always took that in silence, I never protested, never showed any emotion, so I became totally dissociated. It was the death by a thousand cuts for me. I was very shamed for not showing my feelings and for being "weak" because I took the abuse without protesting. My mum complained that I never showed any anger and at the same time did everything she could to make me angry. The few times I would verbally complain about the conditions I was living in, she would always call me oversensitive. Her and my sister. So, to this day I’m “emoto phobic”, I think that’s what the SpartanLifeCoach calls it….but I’m doing my CPTSD treatment now so little by little I’m learning to tolerate my feelings.

    And then, I just have to complain….in my teens I had my first insane, and incompetent psychologist tell me to “talk about it with my mother.” Such idiotic advice. If the therapist had actually heard what I said, then she would have known that it would only be a recipe for further traumatisation to talk to my mother. But I did try to talk to my mum because I thought the therapist must know something, and then my mother said that I shouldn’t have obeyed her rules when I was a kid. The whole problem was that I had been too obedient and did what she told me to do. Hahahahahah…..ROFL!!!!! The child is told to obey then not to obey...."The point is, there is no point"….hahahaa…or rather, "the point is to always be put down by the narc". They refuse to follow the laws of reason. They just jump around from left to right freely, and win every time….

    But it’s so hard to avoid the Cluster Bs. I am literally in a position now where I only have one single friend remaining. And she lives in another city and is busy with her family life etc. But I can't seem to find new friends anymore, because nobody understands what I've been through, and the world seems filled with narcs…..I am just still walking around in an isolated daze and bubble going
    "I can't believe this happened to me.....???" When I say that I lost everything, I mean, I lost everything. I lost all my personal belongings, my job, my home, all but one friend, my entire family (I can't tolerate their BS anymore), my home city, my home country (and some other things not web friendly)....not much more that can be lost....oh yes, my sanity/mental health and will to live also, the Samangat....plus, my physical health. I now live in exile in Sweden and am trying to rebuild my life....and my Samangat...I lived in California for the last 16 years and miss it every single day....

    And yes, totes! I am at the end of reading Pete Walker’s Book on CPTSD. It’s so intense and takes so much out of me to read it so it takes me a long time. But I’m working every day, processing my emotional flashbacks based upon an email from Leyla Loric. And she based it on his book, mostly, so it’s very simple for me and I am able to work through at least one flashback per day. I am TOTALLY improving!!!

    Are you doing any therapy work other than working the book?
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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:42 pm

    Oh, I forgot to mention, I lost 50% of my hair too..... My last sociopath left me 2.5 years ago...and I haven't had a hug from a man since then....I'm utterly destroyed...but the SpartanLifeCoach channel was the only thing that was able to ease my pain during the worst of it. It was only about a month ago that I became free from my Zombie Witch Dr....so I'm not a slave anymore!!! Yay!!!! Hahahah...take that, life!!!! Very Happy

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    BraveRuth

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by BraveRuth on Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:42 am

    First, I want to say how utterly sorry I am that you were treated that way by your family. While I do relate to the crazy making, nonsense scenarios of the narcs, I remain in constant disgust when I hear the psychological tortures they force others to endure. And I am so so sorry you had to endure it. Your reaction was nothing more than the best effort your mind and body had to survive that kind of torment, and there is absolutely no shame in that. Despite your reaction or non-reaction, you still saw through it and knew it was wrong. Even if you couldn't respond to it in the moment, part of you still knew it was wrong and you fought to stay connected to the truth, and that takes incredible strength.

    For me, I never had any non-narc friends growing up. My father made us move every 3-4 years so any connections I made were broken before they became too strong. By high school, I learned not to ever get close to people because I knew I'd just be forced to move away and lose them anyways. It was less painful not to let people close than it was to let them close and be ripped away from them as I had been my whole life. If there were any healthy people in my life as a child, I lost them before they had a chance to be of any help. My parents were masters at projecting a perfect image to the community as well. The one time I tried to tell a pastor friend about the abuse I was enduring, he didn't believe me at all because my mother worked at the same church he did. They all just labeled me as crazy. And because I had developed an eating disorder (taking out my silent pain on myself and truly wishing that I didn't exist), it seemed believable. Another win for the narc rhetoric and the same old story. They drive you to insanity and then use the insanity they create to discredit everything you say about them...

    I am so sorry to hear all that you have lost. I too have lost everything...a few times over, in fact. It is utterly painful and completely unfair. But there IS one thing you haven't lost. You haven't lost the truth...and therefore you haven't lost yourself. You still have yourself and you are mending yourself. I know it's painful and unfair. I feel the same way. (I recently lost my job because of the last sociopath I was involved with...). But I too haven't lost myself....yet. And even though I'm not where I want to be, I am at ground-zero, so to speak. We can build our lives from nothing and become something those narcs can never be. We can mend and heal at core levels and break the horrible generational abuse they allowed to continue. We can change while they will always remain awful people. And I do believe there is hope in that.

    Again, I am so sorry at all that you've had to endure. But I do understand it and I believe that there are many people like you and I who have lost everything and had no guidance, who are now finding healing. I too am eternally grateful for discovering these youtube videos (Spartan Life Coach and Thrive After Abuse and the literature I've come across because of them)...have quite literally saved my life!!
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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:48 am

    Very well said “ I remain in constant disgust when I hear the psychological tortures they force others to endure. “ I totally agree and feel likewise. It’s often easier for me to feel that outrage when I hear about others being exposed to it, than when it happens to me. Cause when I’m involved I always second guess and think that perhaps it was just me, something I said or that I’m overreacting and I’m not seeing their point of view clearly enough….hahaha…and I don’t actually see their point of view clearly enough. I need to go to Planet Narco and try to relate, and it’s near impossible for me. Lol.


    I’m so sorry that the pastor you spoke with didn’t believe you. That’s so horrible…How brave of you to speak with him. It’s so frustrating also that the narcs are so loved by the community, that so many don’t see who they are. My mother is to this day seen as this perfect, kind, humble being. They are such master manipulators. So sorry they labeled you as crazy. I believe you and I think you seem totally sane. Smile

    Sorry you also developed an eating disorder. Again, so many similarities here. I became anorexic and got down to insanely low body weight levels, they labeled me as just weak because mentally ill was too "posh" hahahah, but that is what finally led me to get to see my first psychologist. My inner critic lost it's dominance over me and couldn't come up with a good enough reason to prevent me from getting help when I was clearly sick and dying. I am sure I would not have survived without my 25 years in therapy, but on the other hand I’m also very disappointed with the lack of progress I made, and the inability of the mental health community to diagnose me correctly with CPTSD, instead of just depression and anxiety disorders. Or, actually CPTSR, because it is a reaction, not an inherited disorder.

    “They drive you to insanity and then use the insanity they create to discredit everything you say about them…” So, totally spot on!!! That is their ultimate goal and winning strategy. I get painted into this tiny little corner every time I try to have anything to do with narcs/sociopaths. And it's not always possible to simply leave. I am suffering right now because the Swedish health care system is narcissistically abusive and it’s just an impossible fight….It’s really dark and scary. It’s a life or death situation with the narcs/cluster Bs.

    I can also relate to having to move constantly. I’m so sorry that you also had to endure this. The deep sadness of having to loose the close friends made in early childhood. It’s totally heart breaking. That seems to be one of the popular narc methods to isolate others. I too moved constantly and it’s made it so hard for me to now as an adult, stay in one place. I can still remember myself as a small child, about the age of 5 being in kindergarden and helping to plan this fun party there. And then one of the staff asked me if I knew why they were planning the party, and I didn’t. And she told me it was because I was moving. I was crushed and chocked, and so small. But I still got to go back to the very VIP kitchen area!!! Hahaha! There is that….

    And yes, something that to this day baffles me is that I always, always had this deep inner sense that they were wrong about me, and I was NOT in fact over sensitive or weak or stupid or totally wrong about everything. I think it’s possible that the reason I didn’t develop a Cluster B personality disorder growing up in that climate, is that I happened to have this really sweet nanny from age 1-5. She was only a 17 year old girl what came to work for my family to take care of me, but she was actually Ph neutral and treated me with dignity, and sanity. So, I think that’s why I still am able to have a connection with reality and with reason etc. But then on the other hand, it seems like you didn't really have that type of person in your early life, and yet you stayed sane. Perhaps there is some other aspect involved here?

    Btw, it’s so refreshing to be able to talk to another person who shares the same understanding and funny language like Zombie Witch Drs and Planet Narco, Hahahhah….Usually I have to spend about 20 minutes trying to explain myself and yet mostly I just get a blank stare from people….

    When I read that you too have lost everything, and several times even, I was chocked. I have thought that I was the only one. It’s fascinating to me how totally isolated I’ve become in this situation.

    I’m so sad that you have lost everything, and now recently your job, and I’m also chocked at how that might have happened! I am chocked that there are other evil narcs out there doing this to other people. It’s all totally, utterly, deeply, ongoingly chocking and overwhelming. Learning this from you, is like another layer of awakening for me.

    Because of my strong inner critic, when it comes to myself, it’s like my own brain still sides with them and says to me that it’s in fact my own bad desicions that made me loose everything, even though I KNOW for SURE that is NOT true. I made the best desicions I could in a totally insane situation, surrounded by totally insane and malignant people. I was fooled, and lied too and manipulated, and stressed, and triggered, and I honestly didn’t have a clue what was going on. I was so uninformed, and naive. But now I know, so now I can protect myself. And knowing that I’m not the only one, totally helps me feel better about the fact that these things happen to good people and it’s not in fact my or our fault (so long as I NEVER let another narc into my life again…) and that perhaps I can rebuild….

    And thank you for being so sane and supportive! I have totally not lost the truth. I love that you pointed that out! You are so wise! That has not been taken from me. I have access to mental clarity a lot of the time (so long as I'm not in denial...). So, All is not lost. Very Happy

    I also still do have some level of physical health. I’m able to do some yoga at home. I do have a job now, and I have a roof over my head (airbnb hahaha). So, there is a chance for me. I also have some savings reaccumulated.

    And yes, there is actual hope for us, so much more than there is for them “We can mend and heal at core levels and break the horrible generational abuse they allowed to continue.” Super spot on and well said again!!!

    Yes, the SpartanLifeCoach and Thrive After Abuse, Leyla Loric, and the information they share, it’s been totally life saving for me also and still to this day it’s the only thing that gives me some peace from the pain, madness and isolation around me.

    Many hugs and thanks so much for your support!!!!

    Lisa Smile
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    BraveRuth

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by BraveRuth on Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:03 pm

    What you said in the beginning is something I struggle with still too....internalizing the narrative of the narcissist when it applies to me.  Like you, I recognize it with others and easily jump to other's defense.  But when it's me I sit back and question myself or ask myself "is there any truth to this, are they right?" etc.  

    Just yesterday, I was taking my very rambunctious dog on a walk. I'm working hard to train her and as a result, I have her close to me as we walk and if she starts pulling after other animals then I make her walk/look straight ahead.  I was also wearing headphones and absorbed in an audiobook when this lady walks up behind me with her dog.  My dog kept trying to turn around to see the dog behind us and I kept pulling her collar to walk forward.  Anyone with a brain and semi-decent boundaries could have seen that I was trying to keep my dog at my side and moving forwards.  I also had my headphones in, which probably should have indicated that I wasn't outside to meet and socialize with people.  But this lady, instead of slowing down or speeding up to pass us, just walks exactly behind us for awhile letting her dog come up right behind mine.  I was getting irritated as my dog kept trying to turn around and I kept trying to get her to walk straight, and I suddenly heard this lady say something.  I literally I had stop, take out my earbuds, make my dog sit and calm down, and interrupt everything I was clearly trying to do just to hear what this lady was saying.  The lady had the all-too-familiar look of childlike innocence to her that all narcs/psychopaths have (although she was probably in the 40s or 50s) and acted like I was soooo mean for not letting my dog play.  She said "it's okay for your dog to play you  know" and she said it in this super condescending and pitiful tone.  

    I was absolutely flabbergasted at the audacity of this complete stranger to not only blatantly interrupt what I was clearly doing but then push into my space and assert such a thing.  I was immediately in the situation where if I asserted my boundary and told her she was being rude and to leave me alone, that I would look "mean" or "rude" while she looked so innocent and was "just trying to play."  I stopped for a minute, let my dog sniff the other dog for half a second, then walked off quickly without saying anything.  In retrospect, I should have been firm with the lady, told her she was inappropriate, and let her know it.  But I didn't because I was too afraid of being seen as "rude."  And now I'm kind of kicking myself for not being more firm...

    But yeah, that's the struggle.  

    I can't even imagine what it had to be like to prepare for your move before you were even told it was you that was moving.  That is such a deep betrayal and something that would be very traumatizing!  I am so sorry you had to experience that - and everything else you've had to experience.  

    To be honest, I can't really explain how I maintained any form of sanity growing up.  The more I think about it, the less it makes sense that I would have aside from a miracle.  I have always believed in God and I honestly believe that God just put a sense of right/wrong in me that allowed me to stay sane.  I had that sense in me since I was a child and have always been fierce about justice.  Injustice bothers me more than anything and I think that's why.

    I am so glad you still have physical health and a job.  That is wonderful!  I just know that there is a purpose for all the pain, even when it feels overwhelming sometimes.  Even if that purpose is connecting with others who are also in pain, so that we don't feel so alone.  That has brought be so much comfort!
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    Tebasile

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:39 am

    Oh, that SUCKS....I just felt this pain in my stomach when I read what she said "it's ok for your dog to play you know"....it's TOTALLY ENRAGING!!!! The innocent free, unsolicited "advice". I am actually allergic to that stuff by now but each time it happens to me, I get the most massive freeze response. I feel an impulse to punch the person or scream at them, and then I freeze probably to protect them from my rage. And yes, the interruption aspect is also so totally ambient abusive....these people SUCK....so much....it's exhausting....

    I dream of the day where I might be able to set a healthy boundary like saying "you're being rude, please leave me alone." I'm totally trapped in my freeze response to this day...But on the other hand, it's also a survival instinct. Because if you or I had actually said that to this clearly malignant covert narc/sociopath, then what might the consequences be? There is no knowing.

    I kind of feel like I was a smart child to choose total submission and co-dependancy in the lethally dangerous environment I grew up with. I am 100% certain to this day that if I had "stood up to" my mother as a child, she would have murdered me.

    I am working on the BuildBetterBoundaris course now from Richard Grannon, but the most important aspect still I think, must be to simply fawn and silently leave dangerous individuals. It can't be that we should set healthy boundaries with dangerous people. And this woman was a stranger. That thought "I will look rude" might be a really self protective defense actually, and one that we should keep to survive in this world filled with so many narcs.

    It makes sense that it might be God that saves some of us. I too have always been one to defend justice. It is basically the only thing I have left now too, my core values....so that must be strong in me. I wish SO much that I could not feel guilt or empathy so that I could just disappear into living a life in superiority... because the bottom is SOOOO painful....being disempowered by poverty is totally humiliating...but I have no choice in the matter. I feel empathy and moral inner codes, so I have to follow them...or else I suffer even deeper....

    Also, perhaps being the black sheep makes it possible for some reason to maintain some connection with reality. The confusion of being put down one second and then put on a pedistal the next might just be impossible for a human child to cope with. At least I knew for sure, that I sucked at all times. So there was some psychic stability in that. Then I could silently develop an inner rebellion against that.

    Thank you so much for your friendship and encouragement. I too am so happy and grateful for my job and some levels of physical health. I do have a roof over my head and am building some empowerment and stability with time. It is threatened every day though by the narcissistic system I live in here in Sweden, and the new narcs I have invited into my life....but I am taking small steps every day to free myself...I hope to connect with more survivors as most groups don't understand this stuff so people tend to just retraumatise and trigger me....but perhaps all this will lead me to a stronger spiritual life at least...all I want is love and intimacy....but perhaps that is not the main purpose of this life....hahaha....












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    BraveRuth

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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by BraveRuth on Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:42 pm

    Oh my goodness you are so right about the freezing being a survival response and who really knows what would have happened.  I have so much experience with these covert types that I automatically freeze at the idea of setting a boundary because at this point, my instincts know it will cause more of a problem.  So the best idea is usually to just get out of the situation as soon as possible.  With that said, it would have felt good to at least say "excuse me, ma'am, you are bothering me.  Please leave me and my dog alone!"  Or at least something!  Alas, maybe one day.... Smile

    I feel like we must have grown up in very similar environments.  I had to adopt the submissive/caretaking (freeze/fawn) role or else there is no telling if I'd still be alive.  The one...singular...time in my life that I actually stood up to my own dad on a moral issue (I even did so very respectfully, I simply did not allow him to change my mind and make me back down from my position) and he got physically violent with me.  It was the only time he had been physically violent but it was also the only time I ever held my ground.  To him that was such a narcissistic injury that his rage came out physically.  I was already about 24 years old by then.  I can't even imagine if I had stood up to him when I was a kid...our trauma responses really do save our lives as children.  And yet cause such problems as adults.

    I also relate to the deep inner morality that drives me to make fair, honest, and just choices...even if it means I suffer materially, financially, socially, etc.  Time and time again I've been ignored and passed over for jobs or promotions simply because I refuse to lie, over-exaggerate, or step on other people just to get ahead.  Granted, I could probably stand to "self-promote" better than I do, considering my biggest talent is to actually do the opposite and demote myself whenever given the chance.  Talk about a self-defeating pattern of behavior, sheesh.  But still...while I do need to learn balance, I would STILL rather have my issues than any issues that would cause me to feel entitled to hurting others without empathy or remorse.  I can't even imagine the karmic justice those people have coming to them and I don't want to be around when it comes.  No thanks, I'll be over here trying to help someone else up out of the muck and mire.

    I also understanding being triggered and re-traumatized by many others.  Even others on the road to recovery.  I'm glad you're doing what you need to do for yourself, even though it seems there are so many things, people, and systems working against you.  I so relate.  When I was in college I almost died of an eating disorder.  After awhile of individual therapy, my therapist wanted me to try group therapy.  I went to one group and was so triggered I refused to ever go back.  I was doing really well recovering on my own and listening to all these girls talk about how scared they were of food only sent my brain spiraling backwards after I had worked so hard to move forwards!  I don't know how anyone really stood group therapy but it never worked for me and I refused to go back, lol.  It's so hard to find people to understand but the ones who do are so golden to me.  

    I am so grateful for our conversations!!!  Thank you for understanding as well Smile  I hope your weekend went well and that you're having a better week!
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    Tebasile

    Posts : 23
    Join date : 2016-04-14
    Age : 45
    Location : Malmö, Sweden

    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

    Post by Tebasile on Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:25 am

    Wow, that is truly incredible that your father totally lost is when you simply held your ground on an issue. And I agree, it was totally the right thing to use your trauma responses in childhood, they totally saved your life for sure. But yeah, I hear you on how they cause so much trouble in adult life….

    Their need to dominate is so invasive and complete. A true fashist state.

    I remember my mother being totally controlling about everything when I ended up having to stay with her about two years ago becase I had become homeless. I obeyed her every rule, except that I wanted to recycle and that was not acceptable to her. So, in the end I started hiding things under my bed and sneaking them out of the house to recycle……hahahah….OMG, the insanity!!!! How am I not totally crazy? Hahahah….

    I too can see my own self-defeating patterns of behavior…it’s so painful. And especially in intimate relationships. I am truly stuck. But I keep doing my CPTSD recovery work. It’s all I can do….

    And yes, I would feel absolutely horrible if I acted entitled and hurt others and can’t imagine how it would be to not feel empathy and remorse? I would be a zombie then for sure….

    I hope that there is karmic justice for them. I am so frustrated that they all seem to be doing so well, with housing and careers. But I do know they can never really have intimacy, even though I see them have handsome partners and I know they never sleep alone….they get their 6 hugs per day to have more health and happiness, while I go without hugs for years and sleep alone etc….sucks so badly….

    It’s hard for me to not feel envious of what they have….I have nothing to envy except a lot of moral inner codes and a strong sense of guilt and empathy…I am homeless, alone, have no career, no personal belongings, no love in my life….and I’m depressed and a little bit overweight and have thin hair and one milion health problems….while I see the narcs taking another vacation to an exotic location....how could I not be totally frustrated and how could I value my own inner core values. Society doesn't care...but then I have a friend who always says..."the devil take care of his own." and that at least cracks me up...heheheh....

    Survived the weekend, am trying to survive the week....
    Lisa Smile


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    Re: Is begging a Fawn-Response?

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